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Pthalo pigments

The fam­ily of pthalo­cya­nine pig­ments, com­monly called ptha­los or tha­los, come in a num­ber of blue and green shades. They are beau­ti­ful, light­fast, trans­par­ent, and high in chroma. But I don’t use them.

The rea­son is that they are too bloody strong. Pthalo blue is some­thing like 40 times as strong a tin­ter as ultra­ma­rine blue. That means, for exam­ple, that in order to change the color of tita­nium white by 10%, you would add 40 times as much ultra­ma­rine blue as pthalo blue. That sounds like a good thing (effi­cient!), but in fact it’s infu­ri­at­ing. In mix­ing, it is extra­or­di­nar­ily dif­fi­cult to add a small enough amount of a pthalo color to get the effect you’re look­ing for. Paint man­u­fac­tur­ers reduce this prob­lem some­what by adding col­or­less exten­ders to some pthalo paints, but that only goes so far. Some artists learn to man­age with ptha­los (they are, in fact, quite pop­u­lar artist’s col­ors), but I hate try­ing to work with infin­i­tes­i­mal amounts of paint when try­ing to make sub­tle changes to mix­tures, so they drive me nuts.

For­tu­nately, there are good sub­sti­tutes. Pruss­ian blue is almost exactly the same hue and trans­parency as a neu­tral (not green or vio­let) shade of pthalo blue, but a lot less strong. And virid­ian is very sim­i­lar to a neu­tral pthalo green. So if you have trou­ble mix­ing with pthalo col­ors, try those instead.

Posted in art materials, oil painting, painting, tempera.

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9 Responses

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  1. Dorothy says

    But isn’t real Pruss­ian blue a fugi­tive pig­ment? I pre­fer it too, but I’ve been led to believe that pthalo is its replacement.

    I don’t care to use the ptha­los, either. I don’t even own pthalo green.

  2. David says

    Dorothy,

    Great to hear from you. I’ve enjoyed your blog (it would be great if you’d post more often—hint, hint).

    Your point regard­ing Pruss­ian blue is a good one. The ASTM rates Pruss­ian blue as hav­ing the high­est light­fast­ness rat­ing (excel­lent or I). They are usu­ally very reli­able for tests of this sort. There is a good dis­cus­sion of Pruss­ian blue as a water­color pig­ment at the excel­lent Hand­print website:

    (http://​www​.hand​print​.com/​H​P​/​W​C​L​/​w​a​t​e​r​f​s​.​h​tml

    In sum­mary, the author’s light­fast­ness tests indi­cated that some brands show a slight dis­col­oration within two weeks, but no fad­ing after that. Other brands demon­strate no fad­ing at all.

    Gen­er­ally (but not always) pig­ments dis­play their worst light­fast­ness in water­color and show much bet­ter results in heav­ier media such as oil and acrylic. Over­all, I am very com­fort­able using Pruss­ian blue from good man­u­fac­tur­ers in those media. I’d be more care­ful with water­color, but it seems that the bet­ter brands pro­duce good results in that medium as well. I don’t have any in raw pig­ment form and would be very care­ful about select­ing the com­pany I pur­chased it from if I did.

  3. Sue says

    You are so mean to pthalo blues. I love, love, love it for its intensity.

  4. David says

    Sue,

    If it works for you, then great. I find ptha­los much too strong.

  5. Linda says

    Nice arti­cle on chroma, etc. I agree with you about the books on color with lots of verbage and noth­ing really usable to be extracted. Oy is right. I like your knowl­edge­able straight for­ward tell it like it is style. Thank you.

  6. andy says

    One thing to con­sider when mix­ing these blues is rather your desired end result is a trans­par­ent or opaque color…. Ultra­ma­rine and thalo blue are both trans­par­ent to vary­ing degrees and you must con­sider that if you are going to mix more ultra­ma­rine blue with white then the result­ing mix is going to be that much more trans­par­ent than it would have been with thalo blue.
    Also I was under the impres­sion that pruss­ian blue was extremely lightfast.

  7. David says

    Andy,

    If ptha­los work for you, then you should cer­tainly use them. I would not sub­sti­tute ultra­ma­rine for most vari­eties of pthalo blue, as they are dis­tinctly dif­fer­ent in hue. Pruss­ian blue works very well for that pur­pose, however.

    Did you mean fugi­tive? His­tor­i­cally, there have been a num­ber of slightly dif­fer­ent ways to man­u­fac­ture Prussian/Milori blue. Some vari­ants have tended to fade. It’s my under­stand­ing, how­ever, that mod­ern ver­sions of the pig­ment are accept­ably light­fast. See my response to Dorothy, above.

  8. Andy says

    No I did not mean fugitive…I was refer­ring to your com­ment to Dorothy above where you stated that the ASTM regarded it as light­fast! I remem­ber read­ing some­where that some pig­ments are more sta­ble in oils and acrylics because these binders help to shield the pig­ment from react­ing with atmos­pheric conditions.

    In regards to my state­ment con­cern­ing ptha­los vs. ultra­ma­rine, I didn’t mean to show favor over one or another pig­ment but I instead was try­ing to point out that there are other rea­sons for choos­ing a pig­ment besides the hue and that as artists that gives us more ways to cre­ate art­work! I love all the blue pigments….I love blue! I dont think I could con­sider delet­ing any of them from my pallete.

    Also the col­or­less exten­ders you men­tion in the arti­cle above are com­monly added to paints to dis­place the amount of pig­ment and thereby reduce the cost of man­u­fac­tur­ing. Some of you that find a patic­u­lar pig­ment too pow­er­ful might con­sider first mix­ing it with some sort of col­or­less medium to reduce it’s potency then using this result­ing mix­ture to add to the main color your want­ing to modify!

    P.S. I love your web­site! I like the prac­ti­cal approach that is rare to find in most art related forums!

  9. David says

    Andy,

    I’m sorry that I parsed your com­ment incorrectly.

    I, too, am a big fan of blues. That’s one rea­son why I buy paint from Robert Doak, whose blues are unique and won­der­ful. I would hate to do with­out them.

    In most cases, exten­ders are added to paints for exactly the rea­sons you spec­ify. With very strongly-tinting pig­ments, how­ever, another rea­son may be to make them eas­ier to mix with. The idea of adding your own exten­der in this case is a good one.

    And thanks for the kind words. I appre­ci­ate your par­tic­i­pa­tion here. Please keep doing so.



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